Deacs fall to Noles 84-66
by RAJohnston on Feb 19, 2011 5:53 PM EST
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Wake Forest put together a pretty good first half, but came out of halftime with no energy whatsoever, and Florida State waltzed to an easy victory at the Joel today.
The Deacs looked pretty good at times in their offense in the first half, and I was impressed with them, but they really threw it all away with the second half. There were no signs of life, and you cannot win games in the ACC when you go stretches that long without playing with 100% intensity.
Click through for the SCACCHoops statistical recap.
| Team Stats | ||
| FSU | Wake Forest | |
|---|---|---|
| Bonus-PF | Dbl-12 | Dbl-14 |
| Tempo | 74 | 72.2 |
| Off Eff | 113.5 | 91.4 |
| eFG% | 48.3 | 35.3 |
| TO % | 17.6 | 20.8 |
| O Reb % | 32.4 | 31.8 |
| D Reb % | 68.2 | 67.6 |
| FT Rate | 60.3 | 56.9 |
| % Safe | 100.0 | 0.0 |
| FG % | 44.8 | 32.8 |
| FT % | 80.0 | 75.8 |
| 3P % | 22.2 | 17.6 |
| 3FGA/FGA | 31.0 | 29.3 |
| Block % | 5.4 | 9.7 |
| Steal % | 12.2 | 6.9 |
| A/FGM | 57.7 | 47.4 |
| A/TO | 1.2 | 0.6 |
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FSU
Player PTS AST OR REB STL BLK TO PF FG FGA FT FTA 3P 3PA MINS +/- **
Bernard James *
15
0
2
8
1
2
1
1
6
8
3
3
0
0
23
18
Deividas Dulkys *
14
1
1
6
1
0
1
1
3
8
6
9
2
7
28
19
Ian Miller
14
0
1
5
0
0
0
1
4
12
4
4
2
6
20
20
Okaro White *
13
1
0
2
2
2
1
3
5
8
3
3
0
0
23
11
Xavier Gibson
7
0
2
3
0
0
1
1
2
4
3
4
0
0
5
-6
Michael Snaer *
6
4
1
6
1
0
0
3
2
7
2
2
0
2
21
2
Terrance Shannon
5
2
3
4
1
0
1
4
1
3
3
4
0
0
16
12
Luke Loucks
4
3
0
2
0
0
1
3
1
2
2
4
0
1
21
17
Jon Kreft
2
0
0
2
0
0
2
1
1
1
0
0
0
0
11
9
Derwin Kitchen *
2
3
0
1
2
0
5
3
0
2
2
2
0
1
23
11
Andrew Rutledge
2
0
1
1
0
0
0
0
1
2
0
0
0
0
1
0
RAFEAL PORTUONDO
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
1
0
0
0
1
1
0
AJ Yawn
0
1
0
0
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
2
2
Pierre Jordan
0
0
0
1
0
0
0
2
0
0
0
0
0
0
3
-2
Joey Moreau
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
TEAM
0
0
Totals
84
15
11
41
9
4
13
24
26
58
28
35
4
18
199
113
Percentages
44.83%
80.00%
22.22%
Wake Forest
Player PTS AST OR REB STL BLK TO PF FG FGA FT FTA 3P 3PA MINS +/- **
Travis McKie *
20
0
4
8
2
1
2
4
6
13
8
10
0
3
36
-22
JT Terrell *
12
3
1
2
0
0
4
3
2
9
6
6
2
5
23
-4
Ari Stewart
12
0
1
5
0
0
3
3
5
12
2
2
0
3
21
-18
Tony Chennault
12
1
2
4
0
0
0
4
4
11
3
5
1
3
19
-21
CJ Harris *
4
3
1
4
2
0
1
3
0
5
4
5
0
2
32
-13
Gary Clark *
2
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
1
3
0
1
0
0
23
-13
Carson Desrosiers *
2
2
1
3
0
3
1
3
1
3
0
0
0
1
23
-15
Aaron Ingle
1
0
1
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
2
0
0
1
0
Brooks Godwin
1
0
0
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
2
0
0
1
0
Ty Walker
0
0
1
3
0
2
2
2
0
2
0
0
0
0
17
-8
Ryan Keenan
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
Nikita Mescheriakov
0
0
0
0
1
1
1
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
4
-1
TEAM
2
6
Totals
66
9
14
37
5
7
15
25
19
58
25
33
3
17
201
-115
Percentages
32.76%
75.76%
17.65%
- JTT had a pretty good game and drew two 3-point fouls (hit all 6), but he had some bad fouls, including one at the end of the first half that was really stupid.
- If every player on our team played with as much heart and hustle as Travis McKie then Wake Forest would be a much better team. I love this kids desire to play and I think it will rub off on the other guys.
- CJ Harris looked overmatched today, and once again struggled from the field. Got to the rim and the foul line a good amount, but I really wish he had a better game on his birthday.
- Ari Stewart broke out of the funk that he has been in lately and hit some really difficult shots. He has to cut down on the turnovers (dribbling), but he crashed the boards hard and I was happy with his effort today.
- Ty Walker seemed to be in a different coliseum today. He was slated to get the start until he overslept and was late to the shootaround. Things did not improve once he was in the game, and it seemed that he was just unfocused the majority of the game. He can be a great asset when he focuses on the game and works hard, and we need him to be better than he was today.
- We have to get Gary Clark some more shots. There is no reason that the NCAA leader in 3P% should not even get one attempt.
- Carson is continuing to get better, but seems to have hit the "freshman wall". He has been dominated inside on the defensive end, and that will get better with time. He had a couple of really good passes, and an impressive turnaround hook shot in the lane.
- Tony Chennault had his best game as a Deac. He needs to work on his shooting a little bit (especially from the line), but he really showed what he can do as a leader of the team in terms of getting down the lane and passing, or finishing.
- I liked the way we came out of the gate defensively, but we have to be able to score better at the beginning of the game. For some reason we lack emotion when the game/half starts, and that hurts us a lot.
- Our transition defense was awful throughout the game. We primarily played man to man, and for some reason FSU got wide open shot after wide open shot. There is really no excuse for that. Just find your man and guard him. I understand if we are in the 1-2-2 press, but we didn't run a lot of that until the second half.
- Our team offense was alright, but stagnant at times. Not surprising given the talent and length on FSU's team, but still a little disheartening. We looked much better with Tony Chennault in the game running the point. It seemed like we were scared to go at Bernard James inside (who was a beast and picked right up where Singleton left off).
- Rebounding was much better today, and Travis McKie was responsible for a lot of it. He hustled and got 2-3 balls that were seemingly out of his reach.
- One thing that I would like to see more of is following your own shot. It seems the guys (for us and really all over the country) prefer to admire their shot with their arm up instead of moving into a position to rebound their miss. This could have made a ton of difference with a few more second chance opportunities. It would be one thing if it was due to a coaching philosophy in trying to get back on defense (which Coach Bzdelik does stress), but this is not really what is occurring.
- I'm not sure why, but we came out with absolutely no energy in the second half. It seemed that we were sleep walking, and honestly that is inexcusable. We were up 33-31 (first ACC halftime lead of the season), and looked disinterested in the game in the 2nd half. I would love to know why this continues to happen, but this is one thing that you cannot blame on youth and inexperience. If we had played all 40 minutes like we played the first half then we would have certainly been in the game at the end. This is the most frustrated that I have been after a game because we had a good first half, then just threw it away with pathetic effort in the second half.
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My assessment is...
that this team struggles putting a 40 minute game together. We’ve seen it almost all season, but the Deacs will hang tough for 25-30 minutes and collapse the rest. The times of collapse aren’t just letting up a few easy baskets, but consist mostly of poor shot selection and bull fighter defense (ole!). This was most evident from the 16 minute mark to the 8 minute mark or the 2nd half.
Also, I’ve noticed something about our fouls that I believe hurts quite a bit. When we foul, I feel like they’re rarely hard. The opposition gets their shots off and seem to consistently get And-1s. While my basketball skills are limited, I did learn during my high school days that if you are going to foul, make it count, which I somewhat prided myself on. Make them earn the two points, don’t give them 2 and a chance for a third. I don’t know how to find these stats, but I would love to see the frequency of fouls that result in made baskets, because I feel like this stat would be abnormally high. I guess I just remember Chas and David Weaver knocking guys on their backs and forcing guys to make two free throws for two points. I could be making this up, so I was wondering if anyone else noticed it.
I've noticed that too.
And-1s are happening much too frequently. As far as I’m concerned, if you’re going to commit a foul, the ball SHOULD NOT be anywhere near the basket afterwards.
by willisb_rad2 on Feb 19, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
If you are interested in the stats
Here is a site which ranks all ACC (and other NCAA) schools by several statistics:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/acc/fouls?season=2010-2011
I'm sorry
I’ve been gone, school catches up if I invest too much time here & elsewhere, but I had to comment on the game, watched it, read post-game reports, & here are my thoughts & responses:
Orlando Sentinel:
The good: After a sloppy first half, Florida State couldn’t have asked for a much better performance in its first game without Chris Singleton. To compensate for the loss of Singleton the Seminoles will routinely need this kind of well-rounded, balanced performance. The bad: There wasn’t much, outside of the first 10 minutes of the game. The Seminoles started slowly and scored just six points in the first 10 minutes. Derwin Kitchen had an uncharacteristic performance and finished with a team-high five turnovers.
St. Petersburg Times:
It was FSU’s first game without Chris Singleton, a 6-foot-9 junior who was leading it in scoring (13.8) and rebounding (7.1) before breaking his right foot Saturday against Virginia. He had surgery Monday and is out indefinitely. Florida State needed a half to find the energy and intensity to hand the ACC’s worst team another loss Saturday. On Saturday, that meant a second half similar to its 85-61 home win against Wake on Feb. 1. Then, the Seminoles scored 54 in the second half, including 27 off turnovers. This time, they scored 53, including 18 off turnovers.
1) Playing for “a half”, or “if only they could play a whole game” isn’t satisfactory. Probably the most glaring and justifiable grounds for finding a head coach incompetent, is if a repetitious problem by the 27th game of the season, & 12th in-conference game, consists of "failure to play for most of a game. We’re not
2) It’s laughable that 27 games into the season, 12 games into the ACC season, that we lose by almost 20 points against an FSU team its first game with its best scorer & rebounder out with a broken foot. Something tells me our coach wouldn’t galvanize the same amount of moxie in our players if one of our starting players injured his foot at this point in the season. When Leonard Hamilton looks this much better contrasted with our HC, that’s not satisfactory.
3) More turnovers than assists. 27th game of the season, 11th conference game. Just totally unacceptable at this point. Almost every game this has happened. At this point a competent HC would have adjusted his personnel & strategy to keep this from happening so frequently.
4) The defense was lazy for a great length of the game, which again by the 27th game of the season is a joke. We should have more disciplined, & the HC has had more than enough/adequate time to get this group to play cohesively if he was competent to lead Wake Forest in the ACC.
5) Speaking of apathetic defense and indiscipline, we tied our season-high in fouls, so we didn’t improve (in my eyes or by the numbers) any more in terms of discipline than we were last time when we fouled UNC 25 times, and this time it was against a team not as good as UNC.
6) We have two 7 feet big men who still haven’t had a single 10-rebound game among either almost 30 games into the year.
7) Agree re above on the offense, stagnant is the word to describe it. Again.
8) In sum, as DaDeacs has said:
I think the team hasn’t played for the coach, and that our best games have come based on individual performances, not based on us being a "team".the team is still playing poorly, confused, and with considerable apathy. The players don’t care for either entire halves or entire games, Bzdelik’s track record was already not ACC-material as judged by most, & whatever he’s saying, it’s not resonating.
9) The individual players aren’t developing adequately either. “Good games” by individual players are coming in totally inconsistent, randomized fashion. To use some #‘s Screamin’ D’s posted after the UNC game, and to add-on today’s game:
McKie:
NC St.: 4-10, 8 points, 0 assists, 2 turnovers.
Maryland: 6-13, 13 points, 2 assists, 3 turnovers.
Virginia Tech: 5-12, 15 points, 0 assists, 2 turnovers.
Georgia Tech: 4-7, 8 points, 0 assists, 3 turnovers.
Duke: 5-9, 12 points, 0 assists, 0 turnovers.
Virginia: 4-6, 12 points, 0 assists, 2 turnovers.
Florida St.: 3-6, 6 points, 1 assist, 2 turnovers.
Maryland: 3-8, 10 points, 1 assists, 0 turnovers.
Miami: 4-7, 10 points, 2 assists, 2 turnovers.
NC St.: 6-16, 15 points, 0 assists, 2 turnovers.
UNC: 3-11, 2 assists, 4 turnovers.
Now Florida St.: 6-13, 20 points, 0 assists, 2 turnovers.
C.J. Harris:
NC State: 4-10, 12 points, 5 assists, 2 turnovers.
Maryland: 2-4, 10 points, 1 assist, 4 turnovers.
Va. Tech: 3-7, 15 points, 3 assists, 4 turnovers.
Georgia Tech: 3-10, 7 points, 0 assists, 3 turnovers.
Duke: 2-9, 11 points, 3 assists, 4 turnovers.
Virginia: 2-8, 15 points, 7 assists, 3 turnovers.
Florida St.: 3-7, 8 points, 3 assists, 5 turnovers.
Maryland: 5-10, 17 points, 2 assists, 4 turnovers.
Miami: 3-3, 24 points, 4 assists, 2 turnovers.
NC St.: 2-6, 6 points, 6 assists, 4 turnovers.
UNC: 1-12, 4 points, 3 assists, 1 turnover.
Now Florida St.: 0-5, 4 points, 3 assists, 1 turnover.
Carson Derosiers:
NC St.: 2-8, 6 points, 7 rebounds.
Maryland: 1-8, 5 points, 9 rebounds.
Virginia Tech: 1-1, 2 points, 2 rebounds.
Georgia Tech: 1-3, 3 points, 5 rebounds.
Duke: 2-6, 5 points, 4 rebounds.
Virginia: 2-3, 5 points, 2 rebounds.
Florida St.: 1-3, 2 points, 2 rebounds.
Maryland: 5-7, 11 points, 5 rebounds.
Miami: 2-3, 5 points, 0 rebounds.
NC St.: 2-4, 6 points, 3 rebounds.
UNC: 0-2, 2 points, 4 rebounds.
Now Florida St.: 1-3, 2 points, 3 rebounds.
Let’s not forget J.T. Terrell:
4) J.T. Terrell’s development:
NC St.: 2-6, 8 points, 1 assist, 0 turnovers.
Maryland: 4-13, 8 points, 1 assist, 2 turnovers.
Virginia Tech: 5-12, 13 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers.
Georgia Tech: 0-9, 3 points, 2 assists, 3 turnovers.
Duke: 2-7, 4 points, 2 assists, 1 turnover.
Virginia: 4-7, 11 points, 2 assists, 2 turnovers.
Florida St.: 2-7, 7 points, 2 assists, 2 turnovers.
Maryland: 2-5, 7 points, 0 assists, 3 turnovers.
Miami: 3-9, 10 points, 4 assists, 3 turnovers.
NC St.: 3-7, 7 points, 1 assist, 2 turnovers.
UNC: 6-10, 18 points, 0 assists, 1 turnover.
Now Florida St.: 2-9, 12 points, 3 assists, 4 turnovers.
There is no consistency whatsoever. It’s just someone having a good game as an inevitable result of *some*one having to have a good game *some*time. I don’t see any upward trajectory or ascent, and the alternative, relying solely on my eyes rather than a combination of my eyes + numbers on paper, doesn’t tell me anything different. Whatever anyone learns, given the breadth of our losses that have been consistently between 20-25 points against conference opponents, it doesn’t appear nor do the numbers indicate that anyone’s playing with any more development than what would happen if you just plopped a bunch of high schoolers into ACC games & had them learn by ACC-osmosis – high schoolers who’ve been playing against ACC basketball players for 12 games now and sometimes gets used to it for a stretch or two during a game. A head coach in the ACC has to do more than that to get us to the level this program and we deserve.
Don’t understand how the last sentence functions as anything but “hoping it gets better sometime…”:
If every player on our team played with as much heart and hustle as Travis McKie then Wake Forest would be a much better team. I love this kids desire to play and I think it will rub off on the other guys.With all due respect, I don’t see how that’s anything but wishful thinking. We have a young center in Walker who hasn’t developed adequately this season & oversleeps for the game (great inside tidbit by the way, I didn’t know about that until I came here), the players listed above just take chaotic turns having a good game in a spasm while the other two play poorly, then someone else takes a turn at the role/s.
I totally agree I’m not sure why, but we came out with absolutely no energy in the second half. It seemed that we were sleep walking, and honestly that is inexcusable. We were up 33-31 (first ACC halftime lead of the season), and looked disinterested in the game in the 2nd half. I would love to know why this continues to happen, but this is one thing that you cannot blame on youth and inexperience.
This most damns Bzdelik to be rightfully fired at season’s end. Players have not cared for either entire halves, or entire games, and it’s been most conspicuous playing our most important games – against our ACC opponents, where we have but for 2 games been blown out for unjustifiable lengths. We deserve better and it starts not with pathetic performances like barely squeaking a .500 record against low mid-major teams, 1-11 in conference play, losing by 25 points to NC State, the next-worst team in the ACC, 25 games into the season, 11th conference, & mind-numbing repetition of the same glaringly obvious strategic & on-court deficiencies, it starts with a coach who can galvanize this program to the next level. We should be losing credibly, not losing by almost 20 to Florida State at home in their first game w/o their best player. I just cannot fathom how there’s any room to find that Bzdelik is adequate at this point.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 1:43 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
At this point a competent HC would have adjusted his personnel
How do you suggest he does this at this point in the season?
great post!
GTS is right, i’ve had enough of this crap. there is zero room for any more excuses. This should be AMPLE proof how bad we are. It’s not just injuries, youth, etc. We are inexcusably, horrifyingly bad. Fire (Ron Wellman &) Jeff Bzdelik!
Port Arthur, TX
by Screamin' Demons on Feb 20, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Who should we hire for AD and head coach if we fire them right now?
Who would leave the team if we fired the coach? What would it do to our recruits?
We are already really bad. I think that we need to give Jeff Bzdelik more than a year to try to fix the problems at hand. I agree that there is more than just injuries and youth, but I believe that firing Jeff Bzdelik will do much more harm that good at this point.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
That's the conversation we -should- be having
Who should we hire for AD & head coach if we fire them right now
What is your reasoning behind?:
I think that we need to give Jeff Bzdelik more than a year to try to fix the problems at hand
And the latter part of?:
I agree that there is more than just injuries and youth, but I believe that firing Jeff Bzdelik will do much more harm that good at this point.
If we lose ACC games by an average of over 20 points, the coach’s prior resume does not suggest he is ACC-coach caliber, his strategies don’t reflect any adjustments that have credibly improved the incredible losses and glaringly repetitious deficiencies almost 30 games into the season, whatever he is telling the players is clearly not resonating with the players, i in utmost sincerity, question how exactly you propose that it could somehow get ‘worse’?
Look at the magnitude of bad we are at, how at CU Tad Boyle & the school’s press are saying he left them a legacy of generally bad recruits, how the coach’s resume does not suggest anywhere he is prepared to coach at this level, and how our players staunchly are not listening to whatever he’s saying. I mean, 30 games into the season, we’re not playing either for an entire half or an entire game and losing by 20+ points on average to ACC opponents, losing by 25 to the next-worst team in the conference. I don’t think it gets any worse to be completely honest
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Response
What do you mean what is my reasoning behind giving Coach Bzdelik more than year? Nobody fires a coach after one year. He was brought in to turn around the team, and it was pretty clear that even if we had the roster we expected to have coming in to the year (Chennault/Tabb/Woods), .500 would have been a pretty good year.
If we fired Jeff Bzdelik after this year then nobody would come here. It would possibly deplete the roster and would turn off recruits from wanting to come here (nobody wants to go to a college where there is constant coach turnover). So essentially, we would be starting over from this year again.
I see improvement (believe it or not). It is not coming as quickly and rapidly as I want either, but players are getting better. If we are still this bad a year from now then I will change my tune. I do not believe that Jeff Bzdelik is being given a fair shot by the fans right now and are being incredibly impatient and rude (see the Wake Forest message boards).
The team is very bad, and Jeff Bzdelik is to blame for some of it, but it is hard to make lemonade without lemons, and to me it is very clear that we are without a lot of lemons.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
What I mean is I think "Nobody fires a coach after one year" is self-legitimizing
Just because a majority of programs professional & collegiate don’t fire a coach after one year, doesn’t mean it never happens, or that there aren’t performance-based situations in which it’s never happened.
If we fired Bzdelik and expressly stated that it was due to results that were not up to par with our mutual expectations, I think it’s simply dramatic & unrealistic to surmise that people will look at, of all places, Wake Forest, as a place where batteries are thrown at you if you suck or trenchant fans will hang you after an off year.
The point is, this is more than an off year, therefore there should be more to your rationale than “nobody does it,” because there are several performance-based situations in which coaches have been let go on both pro & NCAA levels, and I think saying & going by “nobody’s doing it” is just as unhelpful as saying & going by “everybody’s doing it.”
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
<blockquoteIf we fired Bzdelik and expressly stated that it was due to results that were not up to par with our mutual expectations, I think it’s simply dramatic & unrealistic to surmise that people will look at, of all places, Wake Forest, as a place where batteries are thrown at you if you suck or trenchant fans will hang you after an off year.>
If we did this then it would make almost every single coach that we were considering for the job re-consider wanting to come here. Coaches want job security, and it is very difficult to see a coach coming here if they have one year to prove themselves based on the actions of 18-22 young men.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
Messed that first part up
If we fired Bzdelik and expressly stated that it was due to results that were not up to par with our mutual expectations, I think it’s simply dramatic & unrealistic to surmise that people will look at, of all places, Wake Forest, as a place where batteries are thrown at you if you suck or trenchant fans will hang you after an off year.
This is the part I was referring to.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
I think that's a vast overstatement RA
If you talked to NCAA fans, coaches, & analysts, I guarantee you none would presume Wake Forest’s trustees were a guillotine-toting bunch steered by fickle, uneducated, impossible to please alumni and fans.
Presented with the copious evidence that this coach is being fired for a year that is historically bad, no ACC-caliber coach would “fear” for his job security at Wake Forest. I have trouble even writing that sentence (IMO) it seems so patently unrealistic.
If the AD were let go because he objectively erred by mercurially firing the former coach because of postseason results, and the current coach was let go because of results that any coach ordinarily considered for one of the ACC’s premier positions for reasons of prestige and nearly unparalleled job-security in comparative conference terms would openly laugh at, I find it impossible to believe that people would look at, of all places, Wake Forest, as somehow reinventing itself as Cincinnati, Maryland, Florida State, Miami, programs with less educated and more easily manipulated alumni/fan bases and consistently fickle histories, if you just consider the context of the AD’s firing for being too mercurial, and his possibly nepotistically selected/hand-picked coach being fired for results that nobody ordinarily looked at for a top ACC position would imagine they would attain if they were the head coach at Wake Forest.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Re JoshR: It starts with getting his basketball team to cease playing for either only an entire half or no part of an entire -game-
Other thoughts & suggestions:
1. Our game-plans on both offense & defense have sucked in the same glaring areas repetitiously:
1a) Our man-defense has been a dizzying mix of lackadaisical and chaotically impotent, especially in transition. Prepare man-to-man schemes that at least seem to visibly anticipate the other team’s offensive threats & actually rotate to provide help defense.
1b) Our zone defense has been ineffective & accomplished exactly the opposite of what a properly run effective zone does. If the team’s playing a zone, get it to play it with more discipline rather than set a season-high in fouls.
2. Prepare our offense to take advantage of defensive weaknesses by designating & exploiting a specific personnel mismatch and preparing contingencies like different sets or different go-to players if we’re faced with a double-team or effective help defense for any possible alteration to the strategy herein.
3. Reduce turnovers by getting players to actually move off-ball and train players to use their bodies when with the ball. 27 games into the season, 11 conference games into the season, most of our players don’t move off-ball at all, which is totally inexcusable if all the coach can say is that after each discrediting blowout loss is that the players are sad & crying and that we need to have a better practice.
4. Train our 4 and 5-star centers to keep their hands up & box-out after the other team has shot the ball. After all, he hasn’t developed either at all. Hell, Derosiers rebounds have actually gone down as conference play has worn on. One sleeps in for a home game and the other nets 3 rebounds in almost 30 minutes 27 games into the year.
5. Since we haven’t had an injury in a long, long time, for example, umm actually decide who’s going to run point and give him the bulk of minutes instead of rotating SGs as stand-in distributors.
6. Develop a transition defense. 27 games into the season, & after 11 ACC games, we still have none. It’s stupefying Bzdelik, & inexcusable that we still look utterly baffled
7. Most fundamentally & most damning, the team has played either for one entire half, or not for an entire game. If that’s all you can get out of the players, it’s not every player’s fault, it’s the coach’s, and that’s why it’s painfully evident Bzdelik should get an immediate boot out of Winston
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Response
1. Expand more on this (what would you do differently with our personnel to play against the teams we have been playing).
A) Our man to man defense is very bad I agree. We lack focus and our guards lack lateral speed to keep up with the majority of the ACC. This was blatantly obvious last night as FSU’s guards continued to blow by us and put our big men in really bad situations. Harris, JTT, Clark and Chennault are not even remotely known for their defense.
B) Since we are not very good at rebounding, zone defense really hurts us. We are not big enough inside with Carson and Ty to rebound out of a zone (or really man to man). How would you get us to play more disciplined? The reason we set a season high in fouls is because the refs were calling everything (see FSU’s 24 fouls to our 25).
2. What kind of personnel mismatches do we have? The offense that Coach Bzdelik runs is based on transition/fast break points. When we don’t force turnovers (due to our lack of understanding of the 2-3 matchup zone that Coach likes to run, by trapping off the pick, which we aren’t even doing yet), it takes the transition game out of it and limits the offense that we can run. The guys that are here now were recruited to play in Dino Gaudio’s fast paced system. We are running this year, but we are awful at the break because guys are used to just taking it themselves rather than playing team basketball, which Coach is trying to get them to do.
3.We are moving off the ball, we just aren’t moving with a purpose. The last week of games showed me that. We have absolutely no inside game, so everybody is just floating outside at the perimeter. Carson and Ty are too weak to make a power move at this point, and all of their shots are fade aways or hook shots, which leads to a lack of offensive rebounding. If you don’t think our players are moving away from the ball you just aren’t watching the games. The defenses that we have played have done a great job of limiting our players from getting the ball where they are supposed to. When we do get open shots, we often miss them (especially from the corner). Not sure at all what the last part has to do with your point.
4. Our big men are not playing well, I agree. This is obviously a huge facet of the game, and one of the main reasons why we are so bad.
5. I’m not sure how long you think it takes to recover from a broken foot, but Tony Chennault is clearly still get back in to game shape. He couldn’t run for nearly 2-3 months, which obviously made him out of shape. CJ Harris never played point guard before this year, so it is completely understandable that he struggled while Tony was gone. Tony Chennault is obviously the PG of the future. Fields and Harris will spell him next year when he plays 30 minutes a game.
6. I answered this in #3.
7. Effort is a huge problem, and in the end Coach Bzdelik is not playing in the game. It is clear that he has tried a thousand different ways of motivating these guys, and he has yet to find a way that works 100% of the time. It is obvious to me that some of the players just play when they want to (see 5-8 minute stretches of almost every game). We don’t have enough players to just switch somebody out when they don’t hustle for something, and it doesn’t make sense to either.
In conclusion, there is a completely legitimate response to almost every single one of the complaints and worries that you bring up. Coach Bzdelik is clearly trying to address these issues and working his butt off in doing so. I could not disagree with you more when you say that “Bzdelik should get an immediate boot out of Winston” when there are so many moving parts and problems on this team.
I agree that it is extremely frustrating, and I wish we were really good too, or even remotely mediocre. I think it does absolutely nothing to continue to say the same thing over and over again (constantly harping over the amount of games in every post, wanting Coach to be fired, list the stats in nearly every post). You have every right to do so, and if you want to then it is fine, but I am going to stop responding until you bring other things up, because nothing is going to drastically change until the end of the year. It is tiring to read the same thing over and over again too in multiple paragraphs when you have made your point in the first one as well.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
Fair points
A lot of this is fair but my question stands, how do you expect him to adjust the personnel?
He has given everyone a fair shot and its clear McKie is the only semi-reliable player right now. It’s not like Nikita deserves more playing time or anything like that. There’s not much he can do personnel wise, the rest of what you say, is mostly true though.
This is essentially my point of view summarized into a short post.
There just isn’t anybody else he can throw in there right now to make the team magically better. Since he can’t do that, coaching these guys up is going to take some time. The freshmen are all playing pretty well (Carson is slightly below average) compared to the players ranked around them coming out of high school, and the players that we had returning did not see a ton of time last year (if they did, it was at their natural position).
There is just no quick fix right now.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
Here is my response to you RA in a pair of analogies
This situation illustrates the position we are in. We have a gangrenous limb that is atrophying into a worsening condition. What you do isn’t remove it by small pieces, or give it time to see if it will heal itself. There are situations in which you tie off such situations that are objectively as bad as they could possibly be in order to arrive at a better position to generate better outcomes.
A more practical analogy would be when an economy is suffocated by structural unemployment like in France, if exacerbated by other bad circumstances (in France it would be a lackluster global economy, at Wake Forest it would be having young players in need of development and a program that needs credible losses punctuated by games that should be gimme wins like against the low mid-majors), the policy option isn’t to hesitantly privatize a few sectors because it may look politically unpopular if you de-regulate an overcompensated, rent-seeking public sector, and you’re afraid of antagonizing old-fogeys who aren’t in touch with the problem at hand in real time, the policy solution is to de-nationalize a number of key enterprises to remove structural impediments despite however unpopular it may look to old fogeys who wanted unusually handsome pensions.
Likewise, getting rid of Bzdelik early is like tying it off, and doing it quickly and efficiently is the solution, even if it perturbs a few dusty commentators/basketball-versions of Tim Kurkjian old fogeys because “they’re just not used to it” dad-gummit. Listening to Andy Katz, Scott Van Pelt, & Ryen Russillo, the guys who are in the know and on the cutting edge of this conversation would have zero problem with the concept of tying it off and stopping this inexcusable/embarrassing swan dive to historical depths before the bottom gets even deeper.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Immaturity is a big problem on this team. Sulking when they make a mistake, taking terrible shots in big moments, making dumb turnovers, etc are what kills us. We rank 329th in experience (345 total teams) at 0.98 (with freshman being 0 and sophomores being 1).
Now we can’t blame everything on youth since Stetson is dead last in experience and we lost to them plus NC State is only 322 and we got beat by them twice (plus you have UConn below us). But you can tell youth, inexperience and mainly immaturity (I’m looking at you Ty) are big problems right now, which hopefully can be worked on with time.
I think you're accidentally mischaracterizing what I'm arriving at RA
I’m not saying tying it off to avoid having the bottom get deeper is a “quick fix,” I’m saying that tying this one off by firing Bzdelik and starting fresh essentially comprises a situation that is objectively as bad as it could possibly be, and that solution doesn’t represent a “quick fix” → the solution does represent a position (without Bzdelik) where we could arrive at a better position to generate better outcomes more quickly.
The “quick fix” isn’t purported to be ‘quick,’ or even an immediate ‘fix,’ but given the horrendous results in a more than adequate sample size, what you refer to as my “quick fix” solution, which it is not, it’s simply a better solution than “stay the course,” my solution I strongly feel does get us closer to where we want to be. That is, headed in the right direction, at a competent pace, without the copious excuses and inability to game-plan or even have your instructions resonate with the players.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well at least McKie is good.
Aside from that…meh.
Another day, another loss.
Bah da da da da da da da, Go Deacs.
Blogger So Dear
by Martin Rickman on Feb 20, 2011 9:46 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Didn't catch the game..
But how long did Ty play and how did he only accrue the stats that he did?
Blogger So Dear
"Meet me on the Quad at midnight" Skip Prosser
Ty played for 17 minutes and was kinda out of it the whole game.
He wasn’t focused, didn’t give 100% effort, and was jut out there rather than contributing most of the game.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
I kind of hate to single out individual guys but...
Ty was a big part of our problem. He just was COMPLETELY out of it defensively in the second half. I really like Ty, and want to see him do well, but he was almost a liability in this particular game.
Ari was too.
by SamuraiFoochs on Feb 20, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Ari had his best game offensively in a while, but is still a liability in handling the ball, as well as playing defense.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
A genuine question for GTS...
Do you suggest we depose Wellman if he doesn’t fire Bzdelik? Sorry, but though I most assuredly share a degree of your frustrations with Coach Bzdelik, I really don’t think it’s worth it to oust Wellman. He’s done too much for other programs, in my humble opinion.
i don’t think Wellman has been all bad. He’s helped us get to some very special places, but these relationships are intrinsically impermanent – I can’t remember who, maybe it was Jim Leyland, it was one of those old coaches in some sport that said something to the effect of, “when you’re hired, the one guarantee is that you’ll be fired.” While Wellman has done several great things we will always be grateful for, it’s time for us to end that relationship to have what is most optimal to getting to a better position to generate better outcomes. As for the other programs, we’re on the same page on that too, I’m grateful as well, but when the crown jewel program is jeopardized, problems are magnified and what’s at stake is obviously more important than programs that are important but generate neither the revenue, alumni donations, and national prominence that the Wake Forest basketball program provides. To pre-emptively protect myself from any “quick fix” ideas, I don’t purport firing the two to be a “quick fix,” it simply gets us closer to a position where we can arrive at better short and long-term outcomes at a more competent, acceptable pace.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
It would be very difficult to find somebody who will do a better job than Ron Wellman has done in my opinion.
I am not trying to be rude or mischaracterize you. but it seems you think that bringing in a new coach and new AD will help this get turned around, and no matter who is here it will take 3-4 years to get us where we want to be. Especially if we want to “do it the right way”. Who knows, if we get a new AD, they may not want to do it the right way.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
Just to clarify because what I said seemingly says exactly what you didn't want me to characterize you as saying...
I think that firing Ron Wellman and Jeff Bzdelik would be a huge mistake. Ron Wellman represents everything that is good about Wake Forest. He has a great relationship with coaches, has the right things in mind for the University, has a realistic grasp on the athletic affairs at Wake Forest, and also wants to do them the right way. I do not want to compromise any of those things just to win.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
And further
In response to this
Wellman has a realistic grasp on the athletic affairs at Wake Forest, and also wants to do them the right way. I do not want to compromise any of those things just to win.I don’t think a candidate for the AD’s position at Wake Forest would be someone who would potentially have an unrealistic grasp of athletic affairs at this level, nor do I think that the trustees, alumni, & fans would put under consideration some candidate with ethics’ lessons from the Teamsters’ Union.
I just think it’s a little “too much” to presume that a conversation about firing Wellman is conclusively defensible on grounds that he has a realistic appraisal of the school’s athletic affairs — almost anyone who has been at an AD position for as long as someone like Wellman would have a grasp of their job and would still be here because he had ‘played nice’/been a nice guy with the people he has to work with, and that it’s also “too much” to introduce to such a conversation the unrealistic risk that firing Wellman necessitates with even a remote possibility that his replacement will be someone who will, rather than shake things up, destroy the house, and replace it with some corrupt set of rules from another place.
I’m grateful for the things Wellman’s done, although he’s not perfect, as the message boards will illustrate with helpful information regarding how he’s wasted a lot of $$$ at his previous stops and even here (I won’t get into that, anyone interested can find it pretty easily —> I’m just alluding to this info. in order to humanize someone who does deserves his fair due of great appreciation but I feel is dangerously at the point of being canonized/venerated sometimes), but I don’t think the fact that someone’s done good things in the past forecloses a discussion of mistakes that should give rise to a conversation about ending a relationship that at some point will be ended – this may be the time for us to part ways.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
i think considering where we are now
that this is a conversation worth having. BTW I don’t think you’re being rude to me and i know that that one mischaracterization was unintended it’s all good i wasn’t offended at all, i just wanted to provide more clarity by more accurately establishing what i was saying up there.
I think the facts that we
1) Did not have ethical problems at Wake Forest with Dino Gaudio, Skip, or in modern memory, but after Gaudio was fired Wellman did some “we’re doing it the Wake Forest way, the right way” flag-waving that most people will get sucked into because hey, he has provided some very special things in the past and hey, everybody likes “doing it the ethical way” (just a straw-man argument, nobody wants to do it the wrong-way, i think there are just differing ideas about what ‘right way’ means in applied terms)
2) Couple the fact of Wellman’s suspect ethics flag-waving with the fact that he hired a personal buddy who would be easily-controllable
3) And reviewing #‘s 1) & 2) the fact that he fired the earlier coach not for any kind of ethical indiscretions at all but because of a lack of postseason success, which is at odds with his implicit message that the firing/hiring move in totality was to get Wake Forest closer to its ethical roots — which were never suspect under Gaudio, Prosser, Odom, you can go on forever — it requires no inventation, it’s not terribly difficult to see the historical narrative for what it is, and to see that there clearly is room to have a discussion about firing Wellman
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
A couple of responses
1. We don’t know that there weren’t ethical problems with Dino Gaudio at Wake Forest. We know exactly what Ron Wellman told us and nothing more. If something did occur, there is no doubt in my mind that Ron Wellman and Dino Gaudio were contractually obliged to not say anything about it now. I agree that there are different opinions in what “the right way” is.
2. I think it has been made clear that the hiring was not cronyism. Of course Ron Wellman hired somebody who he was familiar with, that is how any business works. Jeff Bzdelik and Ron Wellman had not spoken in a long time until they spoke with regards to the job (once again, if you believe what Coach Bzdelik and Ron Wellman said publicly). I also have not heard anything to the contrary from any “inside source”.
My main point is that Ron Wellman could have very well not been happy with the way things were headed/things that Dino Gaudio did while the coach at Wake Forest, but the general public will not ever hear about it. Since neither Gaudio nor Wellman have said anything about the firing since then, it leads me to believe that they are at the very least on a “gentleman’s agreement” to not discuss with the media/public the firing. If they were not, I believe that Dino would have said something about the firing and how he disagreed with it (speculation on my part).
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
My take on Wake
What was the post about that he decided to take down? I saw in the comments that Dino asked him to take it down, what was the general premise behind the article?
Dan Collins wrote a blog post talking about a rumor he read on message boards that painted Dino Gaudio in an extremely poor light.
It was a rumor that had been going around that I had heard before.
It was for the best that it was taken down because there is no solid information behind it.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
yeah I think
yeah i think if that’s the extent of substantiating rumors, AND the fact that even the message boards which had an army of Wake students & alums who absolutely hated Dino (professionally), much more than the more deserving Bzdelik until recently, and have a wealth of rumors (true and/or untrue), didn’t have any rumors about Dino Gaudio being unethical (as a recruiter, because in this sport that’s pretty much where it begins & ends):
I think it’s safe to say that whisking an idea seemingly out of thin air, that doesn’t even have unsupported rumors to justify it, like “it may be possible/probable Dino Gaudio had ethics problems that Wellman was sincerely correcting,” is MUCH less reasonable & much less possible/probable an inference than my own, that is/which simply states, simply look at someone in Wellman’s situation.
Strategically the safest & smartest tactical moves when you’re firing a coach with a successful regular-season record (#1 even), who’s stellar at recruiting, that rumors had you didn’t get along with personally, and then subsequently 1) whiffing on the available high-profile coaches at the time, & 2) ultimately hiring a buddy with a poor record in a much weaker basketball conference, are to use the capital (trust) you’ve earned with things like getting to the Orange Bowl one memorable year with your public, dust off the “ethics are awesome!” flag and wave it like mad so people get frenzied over ethics without questioning your very questionable series of decisions.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
yeah i agree, there weren't even rumors on the message boards about Dino Gaudio being 'unethical', which are
the haven for rumors supported/unsupproted like you said. Gaudio was fiery & he and Wellman just didn’t get along personally.
This is Wake Forest & not in my historical memory have “ethics” been a problem, they’re a prominent M.O. and it’s been simply that.
Wellman is a good guy and HAS done some good things in the past, but it’s not a forever job, and he was simply blabbing about ethics as a smokescreen to cover his ass from being asked the hard questions
Port Arthur, TX
by Screamin' Demons on Feb 20, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
There were a ton of rumors on the message board about Dino Gaudio that have surfaced recently, but also came up in the middle of last year.
I don’t think that it is fair to say that Ron Wellman was for certain “blabbing about ethics” when none of us know the whole story.
I certainly see both sides. I really don’t want to talk about this part of Dino Gaudio anymore. It is in the past and really irrelevant at this point.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
what 'rumors' were they? And
i don’t think it’s a situation where we can simply throw our hands up and say “eh, the likelihoods are equal.” i think if we’re talking about probabilities, i just think it’s less probable that there were ethical problems with Dino Gaudio, someone Skip Prosser handpicked, and more probable that Wellman was gushing about “ethics, ethics, ethics, Wake Forest!” to cover his behind after whiffing nationally on getting one of the high-profile coaches at the end of last season and subsequently hiring one with who had a bad record in a worse basketball conference, and was a friend. It’s not as much of a leap
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
come on, let's be real RA
there were not ethical problems under Dino Gaudio. There were persistent rumors that Dino & Wellman did not get along very well, especially towards the end of the regular season. It’s very easy to see that the reason Wellman invoked so publicly a strawman arg. like “ethics is what I’m about,” an argument that nobody in college will stand up & disagree with (as if someone’s going to say “ethics are bad!”), the purpose of the strawman argument was simply to distract people from the fact that he was firing a coach who had done very well in the regular season and had done poorly in the NCAA tournament, not unlike under Prosser but for the West Virginia/Pitsnogle rout, and the fact that he was making a nationally-panned hire of a personal friend.
We’re both working on inferences, but I think there is a lot more reason to my supposition than yours, that somehow there were ethical problems created under Gaudio’s auspices and magically these didn’t even materialize to the point of murmurings. Something gets out if there are controversies like ethics in a major basketball conference, and I think just whisking that idea out of thin air is a very weak argument contrasted with the much more likely scenario that Wellman engaged in ethics flag-waving to distract from whiffing on hiring one of the higher-profile coaches & ultimately hiring a controllable-friend with a poor record in a weaker conference than the ACC.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
and an important distinction I think should be made
(IMO) that Wellman engaged in ethics flag-waving to distract from the fact that he had 1) whiffed on hiring one of the higher-profile coaches & 2) Ultimately resorted to hiring a controllable friend with a poor basketball record at in a weaker conference, does not necessarily amount to an accusation of cronyism.
What my arg. does state is that, like politicians who wrap themselves around the flag to avoid being asked tougher questions, Wellman waved the ethics-flag questionably when considering that we’re talking about Wake Forest under Skip Prosser-Dino Gaudio, not UMass & Marcus Camby, and that he waved it questionably not because of cronyism per se – but because he did not want to have to be asked questions like 1) Why didn’t you get anyone better, and 2) Why did you settle on hiring a friend with a poorer record?
Hiring a friend with a poorer record after whiffing doesn’t amount to cronyism, it amounts to poor judgment, & Wellman wrapped himself in strawman ethics proclamations to avoid being questioned for whiffing & using poor judgment
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's fairly evident...
That Wellman is not going to fire Bzdelik since he knew that it was going to be a rebuilding year and hired Bzdelik anyway. You don’t fire someone after the season when it was going to be a terrible season anyway. Also we cannot have enough money to continue paying Dino’s buyout, pay Bzdelik’s buyout, plus pay a new head coach, all of which while we’re trying to renegotiate/renew Vidovich’s contract at the same time.
Fiscally, we’re in a bind.
Blogger So Dear
"Meet me on the Quad at midnight" Skip Prosser
by BJohnston on Feb 20, 2011 5:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is basically my view but it’s darned if you do, darned if you don’t if your Wellman, If you fire him, you basically admit you made the mistake and wasted this year. If you don’t, you may save face but if we suck again next year, that’s two wasted years.
I don’t see an option that has Wellman staying and Bzdelik leaving this year. It’s either both or none at this point. Usually I support giving a coach a few years to put his system in, but Bzdelik has shown little in the way of either a good offensive or defensive strategy, that the team is just failing to execute. I don’t think they would be harmed too much from a 3rd coach in 3 years.
Before this week, I was probably 60% keep Bzdelik, 40% not keep him. Now, it’s definitely coming in toward 50/50%. I could easily get on board with either decision.
yeah i'm on board with JoshR/GTS/others here, the program would not hurt from a 3rd coach in 3 years
The core question should be: Where do you guys all see Jeff Bzdelik taking Wake Forest? I don’t see a lot of great things. Sure! If we gave him several years eventually we might be able to eke our way into a bottom seed in the NCAA tournament, but that just sucks and like DaDeacs/GTS/Jeremy Bishop and severalll others have said, look, we deserve better than THAT.
Where do you see Jeff Bzdelik taking Wake Forest basketball? What is his potential & his ceiling?
I think this season is more than adequate to develop a conclusive answer to this question. In MY opinion, I don’t think Jeff Bzdelik takes this team very far at all.
If his record was bad in a worse basketball conference, his recruits were bad while there, and here he can neither game-plan well and can’t even GET the players to listen to him, what left is there to hope for! Like GTS said somewhere above, if his coaching leadership doesn’t resonate with the young players, how the hell are we going to be better! I think it’s that simple. If the coach can’t gameplan on par with other ACC coaches, has a bad record in a lesser conf., and our players don’t respect the coach enough to listen to him, the ceiling is NOT very high with Jeff Bzdelik
Port Arthur, TX
by Screamin' Demons on Feb 20, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Ideally he takes us to the Final Four,
but not many coaches at all do that. I think his ceiling is probably the Sweet 16 or maybe even the Elite Eight in 6-8 years. By that time he will have established a good foundation for the future, and a big time coach comes in when he retires.
Is this realistic? Probably not, I do not have enough information so far to say if he can or cannot feasibly do that. I will be ready to give an opinion about half-way through next year (or about this point next year), and will take a stance one way or the other on coach.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
I'm with you on this one.
I could see him taking us to the Sweet 16 maybe. However, I could also see us never getting out of the first round with him. At this point, it’s just my opinion that it’s too early to send him out just yet. As of right now, I’m not a huge fan of where the program is or seems to be heading, but I also think that 1 year is too short of a time to make any concrete decisions.
by willisb_rad2 on Feb 20, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
agreed sir Screamin'
i do not see us getting out of the first round, and i don’t say that with any extra ’gusto or ill feelings.
He had a bad record in a substantially weaker conference, recruited so poorly CU’s on-record complaining about it, his game-planning this year’s been very poor, and whatever he has been saying has not been taken in by our players.
That together smells like at best a first round exit. Certainly not better than the guy he replaced. Can him & start fresh with someone with a more probable/realistic high ceiling IMO
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
I know I asked this before, but who do you think we can get to come here after firing two coaches in two years?
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
i think that's a conversation for another post because these are getting long, but since you brought it up i'll spout a few
In order of preference:
1) Matt Painter, head coach at Purdue
2) Billy Gillispie (I don’t think a lone DUI makes him the devil, he never had recruiting violations but is one of THE best recruiters left on the available list, he’s a fiery guy who is a sheer workaholic that will outwork his peers and opposing coaches preparing and recruiting, AND he wants to coach again and very likely has learned some important lessons in administrative diplomacy after his experience at Kentucky) and we should get him if we are lucky enough that Wyoming waits long enough. Listening to him, he almost sounds born-again in his conviction to win & live life in a more balanced fashion. I think with that new-found perspective on life and hoops, that he could be ridiculously at home at Wake Forest and make history in a very good way.
3) Jamie Dixon, head coach at Pitt (the Big East tries to brand itself as historically on-par with the ACC but it won’t last, and Wake’s a better job than Pitt). Incidentally, as a fun fact, Painter is from Dixon’s coaching tree. Dixon is young, very good at coaching basketball & has the track record to prove it, and in stark contrast to Bzdelik is extremely charismatic & excellent at galvanizing his players to fight for him
4) Randy Bennett, head coach at St. Mary’s.
5) Tony Jones, assistant at Tennessee (and saying he’s Bruce Pearl is just fearmongering, everyone knows Pearl is a blustering, bombastic guy who will do things his own way & that eventually got him into trouble, Jones is ready and is one of the best assistant coach/recruiters in the nation).
6) Chris Mack, head coach at Xavier, and from the Skip Prosser coaching tree
I think that’s a pretty good start. I love Painter, Gillispie, and Dixon. For me they’re:
#1: Painter
#2A) Dixon
#2B) Gillispie.
They’re all competent (have track records that would make Bzdelik poop his pants in envy), great recruiters, proven leaders, and are ready to take the next step. Especially Painter. He’s young and hungry, it’s his time and I think he’d excel at Wake Forest. Painter’s ceiling at Wake Forest is much higher than Jeff Bzdelik’s.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
My thoughts:
1. No way would Painter ever come here from Purdue.
2. No way would Wake Forest ever go after Billy Gillispie
3. Jamie Dixon would not leave Pitt to come to Wake Forest. I think you are putting Wake Forest on a much higher level than most people around the country see it.
4. Why would he leave a job where he has to compete with one team year in and year out to come across the country and compete against the ACC night in and night out?
5. I don’t really know a lot about him.
6. I can’t see Mack leaving Xavier any time soon, but I think he would do a great job here. Right now, Xavier is a much better basketball school for Wake Forest. They have had tremendous success in the past 5 years in the regular season, as well as the NCAA Tournament.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
My responses:
1. Cite why
2. If Wellman were fired cite why without having to use a DUI as a crutch
3. I disagree. The tradition here is better, Wake is a better place to recruit from, the fans are easier to please here, nobody likes living in Pitt, and the ACC has more history & nobody seriously thinks the Big East is the rule rather than the exception.
4. Because it’s a better job and unless you’re unqualified like the man he’d be replacing & produce just as horrifyingly bad results that would get a person fired at any comparable basketball program, he wouldn’t be afraid because his track record isn’t as shi*ty as Bzdelik’s is.
6. Wake is a better job, they’ve been excellent to coaches making the upward ascent from Xavier, and there’s the Prosser relationship that endures forever.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
1. Painter is a Purdue alumni (1994), and he has had tremendous success there. We would not pay enough money to lure him away from his alma mater, and a place that he rebuilt when Keady retired.
2. Gillispie is a headcase. He got fired from Kentucky due to “incompatibility”. You cannot separate the DUI from Gillespie so I won’t even try to. He is not the type of person that we want to represent our University.
3. How are the fans easier to please here? Remember, we have run off two straight head coaches in two years. He has a contract through the 2017-2018 season. He is making a lot of money coaching in the best league in America, at the only job he has ever been a head coach at (since 2003). It would make zero sense to leave. I would absolutely love to have Jamie Dixon, but it isn’t going to happen. NC State will make a push for him when they fire Lowe at the end of the season. Let’s see how that turns out.
4. Randy Bennett is a good coach at St. Marys, but he does it in a very unorthodox way: he recruits guys out of Australia that are very good. He has no recruiting ties on the East Coast (I know that Coach Bzdelik doesn’t either), and all of the jobs that he has been rumored as a candidate have been on the West Coast (Oregon, Oregon State, California).
6. Wake Forest is not the better job right now. Just because coaches have come here in the past does not mean they will continue to do so, especially now that we severed ties with Dino Gaudio in the way that we did. The Prosser relationship does not “endure forever” in my opinion. Skip Prosser was a great man, but that does not mean that Chris Mack wants to come here, especially when he has fantastic job security at Xavier and can make the tournament (and have success) almost every year.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
1. I don’t think Painter plans to stay at Purdue for long. There are tons of coaches who left their alma mater to do it big on the next, higher, better stage. If we were serious, we’d ante up. After all, we’re paying a bum to lose by 20+ as of this minute. We know the basketball program is in a state of disarray, & it’s our crown jewel. We care about it enough and we’d be willing to mount the campaign
2. If you think one mistake defines a person you should probably research head coaches for Bob Jones U. Seriously, one DUI = a head case? Please. I’m totally on-board like the rest of the world with the straw-man ethics flag-waving, but a single DUI doesn’t leave the man with the mark of Cain. Make any reasonable argument that the fans & expectations of fans at Kentucky can be reasoned within the confines of this world.
3. You ought to know this by now. A situation without Bzdelik would entail a situation without Wellman too. Their tenure here is coextensive. Siamese twins. Whatever. One goes, they both would go. That being said, the previous mistakes are so easily assigned to the AD that there’s no question that Wake Forest has historically been one of the most lenient schools to head coaches in the ACC or any comparable basketball program in the nation. Look how long Dave Odom lasted. He produced precious little in the long-run but his ‘ouster’ was prompted by voluntarily leaving because he knew he wasn’t cutting the mustard but the University trustees had the unparalleled good grace to essentially give him carte blanche tenure. And NC State sucks. Nobody would want to go there. They’re the fourth wheel in North Carolina and haven’t been a major force in modernity. Their best memory in the last decade his Julius Hodge & CP3 getting penalized for hitting him in the junk. No way NC State outbids us financially or reputationally. Jamie Dixon is a real possibility.
4. You have great points re Bennett, he is untested by at least is an improvement over the bum we have now.
6. Again, I think you vastly overstate the implication of tying it off and ridding ourselves of Bzdelik & by inevitably by default Wellman. Everyone knows the story. Katz, Van Pelt, Russillo, all of the young experts who are ‘in’ on college hoops have said it repeatedly. The school’s AD fired a coach who wasn’t that bad, then during the famed frenzy for replacement coaches after the tournament last year completely whiffed and ended up hiring a friend with a bad record in a worse conference that’s engendered historically awful results this season. Nobody ‘thinks’ Wake Forest is even in the same universe as the kind of program you’re alluding to, with undereducated fans with a history of expectations God couldn’t fulfill. I infer that you make this assumption because you want to keep the AD, but that’s just my guess. In any case, I think that hypothesis is factually without merits/vastly overstated. And the Prosser connection isn’t a necessary and sufficient condition, it’s merely a sufficient condition, but it gives both A) another reason why it’s obvious any changes at the AD & HC position is because the AD’s time had come when he crapped the bed on hiring a good coach & the HC’s by default because he was a bad coach, & weren’t because of some fictional fickleness that suddenly materializes in the imagination re Wake Forest basketball – e.g., the school’s essentially given carte blanche job security to all of its coaches excepting the Gaudio fire/Bzdelik hire which are essentially one move, which (see prev.) has an obvious narrative that deflects your assumption that he’d suddenly think job security in the ACC at Wake Forest of all places is in a magical transformation of history, suddenly tenuous, & B) Simply another reason why he’d want to come here. We’ve been very good to coaches who haven’t set records for shi*tiness, and that basically means we’ve been good to every coach except regarding the Gaudio fire/Bzdelik hire transaction that cost that AD his job. It’s a sufficient but not necessary condition that provides incentive, & (IMO) it’s a sizeably sufficient
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
by the by, the Bob Jones reference isn't intended as an insult, only to illustrate that
using one event to define an individual’s chance of reform is a little unfair/exploitative
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
I am going to basically respond to two facets of your post.
the school’s essentially given carte blanche job security to all of its coaches excepting the Gaudio fire/Bzdelik hire which are essentially one move,
I do not at all agree with this. Firing Dino Gaudio and hiring Jeff Bzdelik have to be viewed as two different things. How would you have viewed the firing of Gaudio if Coach Bzdelik were 19-8 instead of 8-19? The two are completely mutually exclusive.
I think that it was time for Dino Gaudio to move on, but I did not necessarily agree with the hiring of Jeff Bzdelik. I know there are A LOT of people in this camp, and I believe that most of the editors here also have that point of view.
I also think that you are making way too much of the relationship between Jeff Bzdelik and Ron Wellman. What Ron Wellman has done for Wake Forest goes well beyond just this basketball hiring. Yes he has made some questionable hirings, but he is also responsible for Jim Grobe, and Skip Prosser. He was the 2008 AD of the year, and that along with the Orange Bowl gained him a ton of capital in terms of fans and his bosses minds.
Even if the Jeff Bzdelik experiment turns out to be a complete failure (which it very well could, I just don’t want to say now), Ron Wellman’s job security should not even be up for questioning in my opinion. Now, if the other athletic programs continue to flounder as they have for the past year or so (aside from our ACC championship in women’s golf and women’s soccer), then I will be much more willing to take a look at Ron Wellman’s position as our athletic director.
The earliest that I would even consider doing that is in the Fall of 2012, or the Spring of 2013. I am of the camp that Ron Wellman will retire when he is ready to, and until then he will be our AD. Not because he has done so well in the past, but because we will continue to do well in the future.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
i will respond to your facet
firing Gaudio/hiring Bzdelik represents one decision by the AD, that Gaudio is worse than Bzdelik. If the record was inverted, it’d be the same deal. The AD had a calculus: Gaudio < Bzdelik. Not 1) Wake Forest – Gaudio. 2) Wake Forest + Bzdelik. If you fire someone, & hire someone, you enter a calculus that ratifies the idea that you think the replacement is better than the fired coach. That’s Gaudio < Bzdelik. One equation. Anyway, separately I think that argument regardless who is right isn’t determinative of which coaches would be the most desirable replacements.
On the
you are making way too much of the relationship between Jeff Bzdelik and Ron Wellmanstuff, see what I already wrote to you on this subject in the other thread where you said this. Here:
(IMO) that Wellman engaged in ethics flag-waving to distract from the fact that he had 1) whiffed on hiring one of the higher-profile coaches & 2) Ultimately resorted to hiring a controllable friend with a poor basketball record at in a weaker conference, does not necessarily amount to an accusation of cronyism.
What my arg. does state is that, like politicians who wrap themselves around the flag to avoid being asked tougher questions, Wellman waved the ethics-flag questionably when considering that we’re talking about Wake Forest under Skip Prosser-Dino Gaudio, not UMass & Marcus Camby, and that he waved it questionably not because of cronyism per se – but because he did not want to have to be asked questions like 1) Why didn’t you get anyone better, and 2) Why did you settle on hiring a friend with a poorer record?
Hiring a friend with a poorer record after whiffing doesn’t amount to cronyism, it amounts to poor judgment, & Wellman wrapped himself in strawman ethics proclamations to avoid being questioned for whiffing & using poor judgment
I’m not saying it was per se cronyism that led Ron Wellman to hire Bzdelik. I am saying that it was poor judgment that did.
Citing any “X of the Year” is probably the least reliable tool by which to measure whether someone’s good. Just look at the NBA Coaches of the Year. Half of the last 5 have been fired within the next 2 years. Sure Wellman’s done a lot of good, but jobs aren’t permanent, especially in sports. I think I respect him, like him as a person, & am extremely grateful for some good times in the past like a trip to the Orange Bowl. (IMO) you’re borderline canonizing him for it. Which is a little ridiculous. An award doesn’t inoculate him from making future mistakes that in comparable basketball programs would ordinarily remove others in his position from his job. He’s not our Fuhrer, he’s a good person who’s done some very nice things for us in the past, and most fundamentally, he’s an AD. We can question him & hold his feet to the fire without being met by the insurmountable retort that simply because he’s done good for us in the past (even if we acknowledge being super grateful) we essentially can’t overcome that fact no matter what happens. It’s silly. He’s been a good AD in the past but isn’t immune to critical mistakes, and this underscores a difference between being appreciated & questioned with meritorious threat of removal, and being venerated
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
I think I respect him, like him as a person, & am extremely grateful for some good times in the past like a trip to the Orange Bowl. (IMO) you’re borderline canonizing him for it. Which is a little ridiculous. An award doesn’t inoculate him from making future mistakes that in comparable basketball programs would ordinarily remove others in his position from his job. He’s not our Fuhrer, he’s a good person who’s done some very nice things for us in the past, and most fundamentally, he’s an AD.
I’m not canonizing him, I am giving him incredible respect for hiring a coach that could take us to highs that were thought previously impossible based on the past 40 years of Wake Forest football. AD’s are not hired and fired frequently, and they are usually not fired for one particular hiring. I prefer looking at the entire body of work rather than just one specific hiring.
I am also not alleviating Ron Wellman of any future judgment just because of his past successes, but I do think that he has built up capital that can be used because of what he has done in the past. Past success is an indicator of future successes, and I put a lot of stock into that.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
i think "incredible respect", if it's essentially a term of art for "insurmountable affirmative defense"
it’s venerating him.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
also can we stop re-posting this Q&A on the FanPost?
We already understand each other/can keep communicating here without duplicating posts on the FanPost
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah...I was just putting my opinion there too so people didn't have to weed their way through this thread to find it
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
I can hide the last 3 posts though if you just want your initial post/comment to be there for others to read.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
yeah that'd be great! Could you delete our entire Q&A below the FanPost?
just because we have this here and it would be interesting to see what people simply thought about alternative coaches, I think for those who want Bzdelik fired & a good coach hired it’d be a rich discussion and for anyone else, at the very least it would be fun to talk about potential head coaches
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
this was a good conversation
thanks for being respectful & i hope i’ve conveyed the same, i have to take off now but i’ll contribute best i can in the meantime!
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
Thanks for the good discussion!
I believe that I took down the other responses aside from your initial post and your subsequent comment below.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
I disagree.
One can have “incredible respect” for somebody and still have an opinion on the job that they are doing that is less than flattering.
Wake Forest '12
Mother So Dear
if "less than flattering" contains no teeth
“incredible respect” amounts to an insurmountable affirmative defense, whatever your reason for it is.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 21, 2011 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
Cataloguing the Lack of Excuses in Bzdelik Quotes
November 13, 2010 –
After losing to to Stetson by 10 points at home to open the season: Wake Forest began the Jeff Bzdelik era by bringing in a young, seemingly overmatched opponent that had finished in last place in a low-major conference. Stetson, which started three sophomores and a freshman, had a combined nine seasons of experience on its roster. “They outhustled us, they wanted it more than we did, and we didn’t share the ball like we should have, and we didn’t execute like we should’ve,” Bzdelik said. “I’ll take the blame for that. I’m the leader of this group.”
November 17, 2010 –
After losing by 21 at HOME against Virginia Commonwealth: "Offensively we started panicking," Coach Jeff Bzdelik said. "And just like Friday night in our opener (the loss against Stetson), when we got behind, we started getting frantic and trying to be the hero and breaking away from what we want to do." … "We weren’t strong with the basketball, we didn’t cut to where we were supposed to cut. We made poor decisions. And instead of being able to attack with proper spacing and being ball-strong, they got us on our heels. So our lack of discipline over 40 minutes is not there."
January 7, 2011 –
Before losing by 21 points in the conference opener to NC State: “We’re taking a little bit better care of the basketball,” Bzdelik said. “We’re defending a little bit better, we’re executing a little bit better, and everything is slowly getting a little bit better. That’s all I want as a coach is to do.”
January 12, 2011 –
After losing that game to the next-worst team in the ACC by 21:"We had about six or seven opportunities to take charges [against N.C. State]. We took none [but] tried to dodge them or block shots instead of standing there and taking a hit," Bzdelik said. "Toughness is executing under duress, taking charges, blocking people. All those areas we need to grow in."
January 25, 2011 –
After losing by 19 at home to Maryland, losing by 29 against Virginia Tech, and losing by 24 at home against Duke: “We need to toughen up, mature, get stronger, all those kinds of things,” Bzdelik said.
February 1, 2011 –
After eking out our 1-11 record against Virginia and pre-game before losing by 24 against Florida State: “The spacing is really good,” Bzdelik said. “The spacing was good against Duke. We were able to create some opportunities with great spacing, so it’s all good.”
February 4, 2011 –
Pre-game before losing by 21 against Maryland: “We’re going to have to not turn the ball over,” Bzdelik said. “They’ll press harder. Their press will be more intense and more frequent at home because they feed off the energy of their fans.”
February 4, 2011 –
Post-game after losing by 21 against Maryland: “Defensively, as a young and inexperienced basketball team, we’re just weak,” Bzdelik said. “We just weren’t ball-strong at all. Just give Maryland credit. They were quicker and stronger with the basketball. Quicker to the ball and stronger with the ball than we were. We just turn the ball over at such a high rate. And that’s all we work on. We just need to keep getting better,” Bzdelik said. “And we saw tangible signs of getting better and executing in the guts of the game.” … “In the first half we just had some bad turnovers,” Bzdelik said. “I’m not sure it was as much what they did as what we didn’t do in the first half.”
February 9, 2011 –
After losing to Maryland and Miami: “I told my basketball team that I’m so proud of them for the way they have continued to get better and to compete,” Bzdelik said after the game.
February 14, 2011 –
After losing by 25 at HOME against the next-worst team in the ACC NC State: “We know we are much better than what we showed today, but that is meaningless at this point,” Bzdelik said. … A reporter wondered to Bzdelik what Wake Forest might do to create more fast breaks. “Well,” Bzdelik said tersely, “it would help if we got stops instead of always inbounding the ball, and it would help if we would culminate defensive possessions when we did get stops with defensive rebounding. And, then, everyone needs to run. Hard. Everyone.”
February 15, 2011 –
After losing by 18 against UNC: "We have tears all the time in that locker room,’’ Bzdelik said.
February 18, 2011 –
After losing to NC State at home by 25 and 18 against UNC: “Our stubbornness at times has prevented us from learning.” When asked the reason for his team’s stubbornness, Bzdelik had a one-word answer. “Immaturity,” he said.
February 19, 2011 –
After losing to Florida State at home by 18 courtesy of a 53-33 donkeystomping in the 2nd-half: "Just two totally different halves, plain and simple," Demon Deacons coach Jeff Bzdelik said … Afterward, Bzdelik bemoaned the situation surrounding an unnamed Wake Forest player who reported 25 minutes late for Saturday morning’s shoot-around. "A significant player. And that player played like that," Bzdelik said. "My point is that we can’t have people missing in action, at any time, including even throughout the course of the game. We need everybody." … "What happened between the first half and the second half is a mystery to me, to be quite frank. We let them jump on us and we never recovered," Bzdelik said. “We need to grow up in that regard.”
Observations: Watch the shifting of blame as the season progresses. First we were outhustled playing our season opener at the Joel against the brownie Stetson Hatters. After our 21-point home loss against Virginia Commonwealth, we didn’t have hustle or discipline. Here he takes the blame, probably (IMO) because he overestimated his coaching ability and the abilities of his opponents here at Wake Forest.
Then after barely finishing at .500 against low mid-majors, things start to change. Bzdelik no longer says it’s on him as his job security seems less & less justifiable, & starts saying that the players are immature, lack discipline, and most recently begins to offer nothing more than “I don’t know what happened” in re his players still playing for minority portions of basketball games.
See, e.g. before the NC State game Bzdelik says the team is improving in these areas and turning the ball over less, then afterwards we lose to them by 21 precisely and suck precisely in those exact areas. After losing to Maryland by 19 and against Virginia Tech by 29, the coach says the players are lack discipline, toughness, & are immature. After losing by 29 against Virginia Tech, and by 35 courtesy of a 13 point first half against Georgia Tech, and before losing by 24 against Florida State, the coach says the spacing & things in general are “all good” now. Then before the Maryland game in which we lost by 21, the coach, again, says we’re going to have to turn the ball over less, and we proceed to have more turnovers than assists & rack up 18 turnovers, the 2nd-most turnovers we’ve had all season. At this point (8-15 overall, 1-7 in conference) Bzdelik forgets mentioning himself in terms of accountability and starts chalking it up to all of the players. But for saying he was proud of them after losing to Miami, he says all of the subsequent 20+ point losses should be chalked up to the things like immaturity, indiscipline —> Essentially the players. These are things he said he was A) Improving upon and B) Responsible for (but conspicuously no longer at least in explicit terms).
He’s shirking his responsibilities, if you trace the genealogy of pre-&-post-game quotes his admissions of responsibility start to disappear as his performance looks increasingly inexcusable, his pre-game assurances of improving in specific areas that have consistently been weak from the very beginning of the season when we were inauspiciously losing to low mid-major teams, to now, losing against fraternal counterparts by 20+, fail to materialize, and increasingly, it’s all the players’ fault. Bzdelik’s subtle verbal gymnastics and shifting of accountability is just unacceptable to me, and his quotes, though sophisticatedly indirect, bear it out.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 6:44 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Really enjoying this back and forth guys.
This is great stuff on both sides.
Bah da da da da da da da, Go Deacs.
Blogger So Dear
i want to thank the other side!
it’s been a lot more respectful & there have been no personal insults, the quality of conversation has improved a ton. I’m grateful for it!
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 20, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think everyone is.
Good, respectful back and forth between fans is always enjoyable.
that seems a bit extreme...
I don’t agree with a lot of GTS’s opinions, but they are his opinions. And he makes a lot of valid debating points, as well as bringing up a lot of good topics just for discussion purposes.
by willisb_rad2 on Feb 21, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Great Convo
These are the kinds of conversations we could all greatly benefit from moving forward. The dialogue has been much more respectful and we can all learn something from this type of exchange of ideals!
Blogger So Dear
"Meet me on the Quad at midnight" Skip Prosser
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